Curse

*lemming* · Mar 22, 2011, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

PvE "competition" here is subject to personal interpretation

"Level playing field" shouldn't require that much personal interpretation, should it? Some people have less options than others.

Mesmers were complete garbage in PvE until last year's update; hypothetically, would people not have complained if their accounts were randomly selected to be prohibited from playing mesmers in PvE? It wouldn't matter, right?

Also, I thought you were "done with this topic."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Which was why I said there is no obvious advantage for having merc heroes.

Somehow, I feel like I'm not going to be able to convince you that the availability of any team composition you desire is the advantage, not necessarily the increased efficiency brought by a hypothetically optimal composition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The time it takes for a pre-searing character to level up to 20 is probably much longer than it takes for them to finish a campaign in post searing.

But far less people play or care about presearing than, you know, the rest of the game.

Dzjudz · Mar 22, 2011, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And your point is?

The stored wealth isn't a competitive goal.

Sure it is. If one player can earn an armbrace in 2 hours and another can earn it in 1 hour, they both earned an armbrace. That is what you are saying (the argument before was that a vanquish in 30 minutes or a vanquish in 60 minutes does not matter since you both complete the vanquish and monsters don't get any deader than dead). However, in 2 hours player 1 can earn 1 armbrace and player 2 can earn 2 armbraces. With 2 armbraces you can buy more than with 1 armbrace. Seems competitive to me to be honest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quru

Because people don't want Fire Imp and they are just using RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing advantage argument as an excuse for their greed. They want MH:s because they are cool, but for them, everything in this world should be free.

The 'coolness' of Mercs lies in the fact that you can use chars with any armor set you like as a hero on another char, yes? That's not what we want.

clear · Mar 22, 2011, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Anet is just hurting for cash is what it comes down to. They have tried the free to play route and can't compete with the likes of Blizzard. I do feel you get an advantage with the mercenary slots but at the same time an experienced player will not be hurt by not purchasing them. I think Anet should just start selling in game gold for cash. That way they take care of the scamming gold buyer/sellers and also get some needed cash for guild wars 2.

Captain Bulldozer · Mar 22, 2011, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

If I learned anything from my educational history, it's that miscommunication is always the fault of the person communicating.

Sorry, but that's flat out wrong. Communication is not done by one person alone. Plenty of people (yourself included) are perfectly clear in their comments to any who take the time and trouble to read carefully (and have the facilities to understand what is being communicated). However, not every has the ability to read precisely worded language (and many simply don't bother to even try). Sometimes punctuation is to blame sometimes a statement generally can have more than one correct interpretation, like in a newspaper headline "British left waffles on Falkland Islands." and sometimes people just plain get in wrong.

Back on topic: There are 3 principal arguments against merc heroes.

1) They're too expensive.

-- The don't buy them. They're far from necessary. Also, Anet doesn't set the price, so if you feel they're too expensive show the publisher you feel this way buy exercising your right to not buy them.

2) To be competitive in the game I must buy these hereos.

-- Merc heroes aren't allowed in direct competition between players, so this can only be applied to competition with respect to getting better drops/more gold/etc. Guild wars is by no means a game where you can become a better player by having more in game money, and special drops are largely to feed e-peen. While it might be true that merc heroes make the game easier there's as yet no strong evidence which supports the claim that merc heroes can do something much faster than it could already be done. We do have the example of a so-called "speed clear" of DoA (which took 2hr 15 minutes), but the time is still quite a bit longer than other in game means of completing DoA (8 humans can do it in an hour or less in some cases). The advantage here for the heroes is that a single player can potentially get a party together quickly and at any time of the day (assuming the have the time to devote to the game that is). However, there are plenty of guilds that have scheduled DoA runs (sometimes even several times a day) which would still allow those players to do more DoA than a person with heroes. Also, there have been other claims of players completing DoA in reasonable times using no merc heroes. In short, there is not enough evidence to support the claim that merc heroes are somehow superior... and if such evidence was out there I expect we would have seen a lot more of it by this point.

3) The sale of these heroes blurs the lines between cosmetic purchases and in game advantages, which is unprecedented, and questionable.

-- It's true that many would have a hard time justifying the merc heroes as "content" in the conventional sense, yet its clear they offer some form of advantage. Still, such advantages are hardly new. There is the fire-imp upgrade, the skill unlock packs, the sale of additional character and storage slots, even the introduction of /bonus weapons. So the "unprecedented" part of the above argument in clearly incorrect. As for these introduction to the online store being questionable, I don't think anyone is wrong to question them. If, as Lemming suggested, the store started selling items which gave a very distinct advantage (such as a weapon with higher than normal stats) then we'd want to be concerned, especially as to how such things affect the nature of grouping (though 7 heroes makes the NEED to group a thinkg of the past generally) and also PvP. But I don't believe we're at a point where the advantages being offered are that big. I still think that the fire imp is a bigger advantage in pre-searing than the merc heroes are in post-searing and I'm not seeing a big uproar about its existence. Perhaps then, the suggestion that purchases from the in game store always fall into either a "cosmetic" or an "advantage" category is the flawed reasoning here.

Karate Jesus · Mar 22, 2011, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

Sorry, but that's flat out wrong. Communication is not done by one person alone. Plenty of people (yourself included) are perfectly clear in their comments to any who take the time and trouble to read carefully (and have the facilities to understand what is being communicated). However, not every has the ability to read precisely worded language (and many simply don't bother to even try). Sometimes punctuation is to blame sometimes a statement generally can have more than one correct interpretation, like in a newspaper headline "British left waffles on Falkland Islands." and sometimes people just plain get in wrong.

Meh. You have to write to your audience. If your audience is a bunch of quasi-illiterate 12-year-olds who play Guild Wars, then you have to base your writing style on that.

My hope is always that GW has a more mature audience than that, but lately I've been proven wrong.

Dzjudz · Mar 22, 2011, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

And a power trader can accumulate more wealth standing around on a level 3 mule with no gear, heroes or actual gameplay involved. Then, he can store it in his purchased storage panes.. and chuckle heartily over his "in game advantage" regarding accumulation of wealth.

True, but we are comparing Mercs to no-Mercs, not Mercs to no-Mercs to powertraders. You might as well compare Mercs to full-human teams (which some are trying somehow...)

Saint Scarlet · Mar 22, 2011, 08:33 PM // 20:33

How about this to a solution to part of the problem.

The store sells a pack of 5 Zaishen heros(which are non profession sepcific) for $5, that way everyone would have more of a chance to benefit apart from just those who bought Mercs.

I still think this is wrong personally as it is selling in-game advantages but at least it would go some way to lessening the gap there currently is.

Those people that wish for cool looking heros can pay the extra $40 for the Mercs, those that wish just to be in the same boat as everyone else can pay $5.

chessyang · Mar 22, 2011, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Wow.....just.....wow.

No problem. I just needed to know. please add me to your block list under the UserCP. I'm still on the wiki =]

anywho.... i hope Anet and the crew are reading this thread. people are paying with "Real money." How Anet goes further they need to know what there fans are feeling. good or bad. free or paid. red engine etc.... they need to hear our voices.

Money talks! All the love in the world from us fans can't pay the lunch for the Live Team day to day to push out more content. Maybe a breakfast? But they need to do stuff like this. The business model has/is change(ing).

Plus what lures us in as a "Free online game" was always to good to be true. (Call me old but life shows)Nothing is free in real life (or in game.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

Also, Anet doesn't set the price, so if you feel they're too expensive show the publisher you feel this way buy exercising your right to not buy them.

Ditto! Thank you. WAIT i mean buy them! support them!

Improvavel · Mar 22, 2011, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Sure it is. If one player can earn an armbrace in 2 hours and another can earn it in 1 hour, they both earned an armbrace. That is what you are saying (the argument before was that a vanquish in 30 minutes or a vanquish in 60 minutes does not matter since you both complete the vanquish and monsters don't get any deader than dead). However, in 2 hours player 1 can earn 1 armbrace and player 2 can earn 2 armbraces. With 2 armbraces you can buy more than with 1 armbrace. Seems competitive to me to be honest.

The cool thing about guild wars is that it doesn't matter - aside some limited mini pets and some other limited items you will get your title or you will get whatever "for the looks" gold sink.

And those things say nothing about your skill or you ability in the game nor will impact on your ability of completing content compared with other people (some might say the reputation titles will, but they are fools).

It is just a question of time but since we are playing for fun what matters is if the game is fun.

Captain Bulldozer · Mar 22, 2011, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Meh. You have to write to your audience. If your audience is a bunch of quasi-illiterate 12-year-olds who play Guild Wars, then you have to base your writing style on that.

My hope is always that GW has a more mature audience than that, but lately I've been proven wrong.

While there's some truth in that, there are plenty of times that the point one is trying to make is simply above the designated audience. (For examples, see just about any major political dispute and how it's presented to the American public) Also, with a forum, the audience is hardly consistent. To bring the conversation down to the lowest common denominator would be a mistake in general. Yes, there are quasi-literate 12 year olds... there are also quasi-literate 30+ people on these forums, but there are also those with Master's degrees (like you) or even higher (like me

). I say write in your own style and let the readers decide if what you're writing makes sense or not. Anyway, I still vastly prefer the GW community to most other online games' communities (such as WoW).

Back on track: Guild wars has NEVER been a free to play game. If nothing else, you must buy the game itself to be able to play more than 10 hours. In addition, players must choose to pay to use the content/upgrades they wish to play. Anet, in my opinion, has gone to great lengths to insure that these upgrades do not significantly affect your ability to play the content you already own. Make no mistake, they introduce new upgrades/content in such a way as to make your existing ownership function better and to give you more options IF you buy them. They have never introduced something that made it impossible to continue to enjoy your existing investment and merc heroes do not change that. Anet has toed a fine line in this regard and I feel they have almost completely succeeded. NCSOFT's prices... well those leave a bit to be desired, but that doesn't stop people from buying the upgrades, so I guess they know what they're doing too.

Ghost Dog · Mar 22, 2011, 10:17 PM // 22:17

All I ever here from people is it's not a big deal, and yet year after year the DLC packs become more of an impact and more bold.

We'll see about that, give them an inch I dare you.

Kirzath · Mar 22, 2011, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

All I ever here from people is it's not a big deal, and yet year after year the DLC packs become more of an impact and more bold.

We'll see about that, give them an inch I dare you.

Mercenary heroes are hardly making more of a tangible impact than, say, costumes.

They only open up more options, and they are not a straight up advantage. The only 'impact' you're referring to is just the uproar from the community because they have to pay for content. Heavens forbid they throw money towards a fun pastime they have already invested many hours in.

Come on, people. Mercenary Heroes were introduced to be a cosmetic thing, and that is how I use mine. I do have the option to run with 6 mesmers, but it is not better than the vanilla hero setups that are currently available. You're paying for a broader possibility of hero team setups, not for an advantage.

Kaleban · Mar 22, 2011, 10:52 PM // 22:52

One way for ANet to fix the problem on both sides is actually quite simple.

Assuming that Mercenary Heroes are SUPPOSED to be cosmetic and not grant in-game advantage, why not simply make all Heroes' primary professions switchable?

And if they have a problem with full switching, then ANet could restrict it to caster/physical differences.

For example, Koss, being a physical, could have a primary of Warrior, Ranger, Dervish, Assassin or Paragon. Tahlkora on the other hand could have a primary of Monk, Elementalist, Necromancer, Mesmer or Ritualist.

And of course, Heroes could still have Secondary professions as well.

This would also allow people more freedom in choosing which Heroes to bring based on things like quotes, looks, etc. Heroes like Anton would FINALLY see some playtime lol.

Ghost Dog · Mar 22, 2011, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Not just in this game friend, I have been gaming for two decades now, the state of gaming these days is disgusting to me.

DLC was introduced and I said it from the start this is a bad idea, everyone said don't worry it's just this one little item. Now look at it, developers are selling features that were supposed to be in the original game for $15.

Then most people said "well I don't like it but it's mainly consoles so whatever" or "it's just such and such company they will make anything DLC big surprise". Now look at it, even Valve has become obsessed with it, seemingly the last studio left without it.

Today I see the same arguments here "it's not a big deal" or "it's not effecting you right now why complain?"

Just you wait and see, I gave up on the DLC argument ages ago because people hastily embraced it for whatever reason they used to convince themselves they weren't paying for features that should be included, and it snowballed, look at the progression of DLC in the past three years, slippery slope is an understatement, we're now being denied SDK's and charged for content that modders would have given for free, faster and with better quality.

This is not something you want to embrace it will turn on you, unless you just want to buy your way through an entire game and in that case you are part of the problem and will refuse my text.

To approach an MMO wanting to advance with nothing more than a transaction, it's absurd.

EDIT: For God's sake most publishers even have a regulation now that they can only give away a certain amount of free DLC per title. Look at what you're starting.

Ghost Dog · Mar 22, 2011, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirzath

Heavens forbid they throw money towards a fun pastime they have already invested many hours in.

Before kids and lazy gamers decided to embrace DLC, this was done for free. It was called a content update or an expansion.

Crazy stuff I know, you think they really NEED DLC money?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirzath

Come on, people. Mercenary Heroes were introduced to be a cosmetic thing, and that is how I use mine. I do have the option to run with 6 mesmers, but it is not better than the vanilla hero setups that are currently available. You're paying for a broader possibility of hero team setups, not for an advantage.

That's a lie, and you also have no idea they were implemented for cosmetic purposes, you are not an anet employee.

ensoriki · Mar 22, 2011, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

One way for ANet to fix the problem on both sides is actually quite simple.

Assuming that Mercenary Heroes are SUPPOSED to be cosmetic and not grant in-game advantage, why not simply make all Heroes' primary professions switchable?

And if they have a problem with full switching, then ANet could restrict it to caster/physical differences.

For example, Koss, being a physical, could have a primary of Warrior, Ranger, Dervish, Assassin or Paragon. Tahlkora on the other hand could have a primary of Monk, Elementalist, Necromancer, Mesmer or Ritualist.

And of course, Heroes could still have Secondary professions as well.

This would also allow people more freedom in choosing which Heroes to bring based on things like quotes, looks, etc. Heroes like Anton would FINALLY see some playtime lol.

Then I want a refund. I don't buy cosmetic crap, thats a waste of money.

Ghost Dog · Mar 22, 2011, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by chessyang

Money talks! All the love in the world from us fans can't pay the lunch for the Live Team day to day to push out more content. Maybe a breakfast? But they need to do stuff like this. The business model has/is change(ing).

A couple million dollars from their publisher sure can, you don't seriously think these companies need DLC money do you?

The bitter side of me can't help but think people so willing to embrace buying their way through a game are not good at any of them.

Kirzath · Mar 23, 2011, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

That's a lie, and you also have no idea they were implemented for cosmetic purposes, you are not an anet employee.

Prove me wrong. Go.

Dzjudz · Mar 23, 2011, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Then I want a refund. I don't buy cosmetic crap, thats a waste of money.

Cosmetic 'crap' only is a great way to both support Anet (some people here make it seem as if Anet is starving and desperately need our $45 just a bit too much though) if you want to and not give advantages to people for paying. This is what Mercs should have been all along.

ensoriki · Mar 23, 2011, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Cosmetic 'crap' only is a great way to both support Anet (some people here make it seem as if Anet is starving and desperately need our $45 just a bit too much though) if you want to and not give advantages to people for paying. This is what Mercs should have been all along.

I don't care about supporting them, I care about playing the damn game. Games are fun, I buy games, because I buy games, they get money. It's a business not a charity, I didn't put money out to play dress-up if anyone did that's their choice. I put that money out so I can do crap like a 6 man ranger team, screw effectivity and just have more fun playing this game like a dumass. If there going to turn my purchase into dress-up I would think I should get an exchange or a refund.

I've long grown tired of the idea of supporting companies or worshipping them or anything like that. You make a game, I like it, I pay for it, you are happy, I'm happy. To degenerate the purpose of mercenaries is to pretend I owe them something, when I don't they chose the B2P business model. So if I spent 5+ years playing their game after dropping only what $180 canadian on the boxes, that's all fine and dandy.

If someone turned your Nike Running shoes when you bought them for the purpose of running, into clogs that can look like Nikes, would you not expect a refund or exchange?

I don't think Anet would dare do something so ridiculous as removing the purpose of my purchase.

In-game advantages do not bother me, as long as they are kept within a sane level.